[LgTurbineStructures] AWEA/ASCE Survey Key Questions for Discussion Today
REVIEW OF SURVEY QUESTIONS
Questions sent previously attached below for convenience.
Dear Kevin and team,
I believe you have the right list, in any event I am cc’ing the Yahoo group and anyone who didn’t receive 2 emails from me today should notify me.
Kevin et al.
You have done a good job at synthesizing this information. I encourage you all to review these results on your own and create an independent view of the same to be shared in our next meeting. The following are some of the comments and (seemingly obvious) questions I will have for you all next time.
Comment 1: I’m aware of the internationally-recognized stds. but survival wind speeds are a problem for otherwise appropriate turbines for this region (Class II/III) due to potential hurricane exposure.
Question 1: Does our Guide address this issue? How will it be addressed? Can anyone provide further input?
Comment 1 should be considered in conjunction with whether or not the document we are developing will require certification of the turbine, and therefore development of the system loads, per IEC. If so, certification per the IEC standard should include design for maximum wind speed in site-specific events like hurricanes if necessary, with design to include turbine active yaw, which is understood to reduce combination of peak wind load with static moment. Tornadoes may not be covered, however. Our loads section should identify that turbine manufacturer loads are produced per an existing standard (IEC) utilizing the proprietary knowledge required to define / determine the electromechanical and aerodynamic interactions of turbines with different wind conditions (drag coefficients, angle of attack of wind, etc). Local engineers will not be able to utilize only ASCE-7 (for example) without direct employ of turbine manufacturers as turbine loads in wind are not (as indicated) JUST dependent on wind.
I agree with Mr. Moller’s comments. IEC has a wind turbine class S design for extreme wind conditions. Unlike ASCE (or similar) codes, it considers fatigue life. Local Engineers following ASCE (or similar) will be gauging single-event survival (less stringent) without the benefit of proprietary knowledge and consistency.
Comment 2: The IEC/EN standards are performance related and specifically state that they are only for protecting the multimillion dollar investment of the buyer = they have NOTHING to do with “safety”
Question 2: Is this true? What “safety” are they referring to? Doesn’t IEC 61400-1 state that structural, mechanical and electrical safety of these systems is covered by the same Standard?
The basis of the comment is not clear, plus we are not readily familiar with all aspects of IEC/EN.
IEC does direct that the “appropriate” personal safety be used during construction, erection, commissioning, service etc. It does not give specific safety guidelines as those vary from region to region – or state to state for that matter. Comment 3: Permitting is similar to other towers and stand-alone structures.
Comment 4: And this is not good for large vibrating structures
Question 3&4: If permitting of wind turbines is done as for towers and stand-alone structures, and this is not good for large “vibrating” structures, will our Guide provide the necessary interface of knowledge between standards for tower/stand-alone structures and “new” international Standards for wind turbines?
It is not clear what Comment 3 refers to, i.e. design and associated review, or some other aspect of permitting, however we must admit not being familiar with e.g. transmission or radio tower design standards. Relative to wind turbines, it is as simple as requiring adherence to an existing standard for the turbine / tower loads assessment, production of both ultimate strength and fatigue limit state design scenarios, and requiring thorough (e.g. complete load path for fatigue and ultimate) tower / foundation design for each. The loads are EVERYTHING; development of them is discussed above.
The comment is not clear to me either.
Comment 5: My staff is fully trained and certified to make the necessary code related decisions and observations. Our biggest trouble is with the owners, engineers, and contractors involved in these projects and their lack of understanding of the codes and their lack of plannign and coordination.
Question 5: Will our Guide provide enough information or help “owners, engineers, contractors” regarding their understanding of codes, planning and coordination? Do/Can/Should we provide solutions to all these?
Without knowing what area of code compliance review the respondent specializes it’s difficult to comment, however addressing the comment may be a local issue, something that the guide probably can’t address. The comment also sounds like whining.
This sounds like it comes form an AHJ who insists on enforcing building codes even when they don’t make sense. A note in the guide that these are not buildings or subject to are subject only to applicable codes would be helpful. Comment 6: Your qeustions seem geared to achieve a particular answer.
Question 6: Can somebody review our survey questions and see if they all seem geared towards a particular answer?
The questions seem fair.
Comment 7: PERMITS ARE ISSUED BASED ON REVIEW BY A CERTIFIED STRUCTURAL ENGINEER.
Comment 8: Wind turbine structures are designed and permitted on aperformance based design for the entire installation as required by the statewide buildign code.
Question 7&8: If permits are issued based on review of Certified Structural Engineer and wind turbines are designed and permitted on performance-based design…. Are these structural engineers working for the manufacturer or all the independent structural engineers who provide review perform a “performance-based” analysis?
Comment 7 seems to say that the author is not familiar with the code classification (i.e. non-building) of turbines for structural permits and is satisfied knowing that a structural engineer is doing the review, which may not always be true. The definition of “performance-based” design for a given structure is highly dependent on criteria. Insofar as the code sets criteria for non-building structures related to strength it establishes performance requirements for turbine foundations – but this is less than half the story as dynamic stiffness and fatigue requirements are not covered in the code but are at the fore of criteria derived from turbine needs. The tower and foundation structural engineers have historically had to determine how to come to this without the benefit of US standards, often against their will.
These are typically independent engineers – the guide should be moot as to who hires them as this is a commercial matter,
Comment 9: If vetted through the ICC code review process
Question 9: Should our Guide be vetted through the ICC code process? What can we do better to create more trust in our consensus-based Guide developed under the AWEA/ASCE umbrella?
Does the ICC have a code review process for other than of their own codes? We have aligned the guideline with IEC, the body that has authored standards to which the turbines are often certified using defined wind classes and turbine operational states (=> loads) that also fall under IEC. Technical committee 88 of the IEC authors the relevant documents in wind iec.ch/dyn/www/f?p=102:7:0:: … RG_ID:1282. By producing a document that marries the preeminent international standard (with its inherent reliability framework around loads pegged at 20-year life) to a standard or standards for structural design aimed at US compliance may very well provide the connection needed between the world of turbines (IEC) and the world of US building codes (IBC, ASCE, ACI, AISC, etc). Fatigue design requirements would need to be folded into this, however, and there is more available through reference to standards from other countries than US standards (unfortunately).
Comment 10: THE APPROVALS NEED TO COME FROM WITHIN THE UNITED STATES BY US TESTING AGENCIES, US ENGINEERS AND US CODES, NOT JUST WITHIN THE “INDUSTRY”
Question 10: What approval are they referring to? Really? Why?
The comment appears to be utilizing “approval” to replace “consensus” from the survey question “…consensus within the industry on code provisions, safety margins, and design life…” The comment also appears to not recognize that US engineers are preparing the guideline and that US codes are the basis of the guideline, supplemented by international codes as necessary.
Is he talking about certification (DNV, GL…)? Kind regards and Thank you.
Rolando